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Post by ajantaka on Apr 26, 2014 20:13:43 GMT -5
I have asked this question of knowledgeable baseball fans for years and have yet to receive a coherent, logical answer. For decades, from the 30's through the 60's, pitchers pitched every four days. Then, sometime in the 70's (?) suddenly they were too weak to do so. What happened? This is all especially strange seeing that going to a 5-man rotation coincided with the 'Healthy Era' in baseball. We are constantly being told that players in the last, what, 20-30 years or so are healthier and stronger because of scientific training and diet, sports medicine ect. Then, if players are healthier and stronger, why are pitchers too weak to pitch every four days? I submit that they could well pitch every four days and this is a sign of the fact that people in general are lazier and expect more coddling than before we had so much material wealth in the US.
Thanks for listening to my rant
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Post by prisonerno6 on Apr 26, 2014 21:40:30 GMT -5
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Post by catknight on Apr 29, 2014 3:47:39 GMT -5
I blame it on general wimpiness - it's up there with the DH and 100 pitch counts in MLB's attempt to coddle pitchers 'for the good of the game.'
I was just telling someone on another forum that next I expect to see 9 man rotations, with everyone taking a single inning. We'll have to ban extra-inning games and doubleheaders though. Wouldn't want to tire out the poor dumplings.
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Post by prisonerno6 on Apr 29, 2014 7:25:00 GMT -5
Let's be reasonable, we all know why there is a Five Man Rotation and 100 Pitch Count...MONEY!
When Baseball Team Owners pay what they do for Starting Pitchers, you have to know that the Owners tell the Coaching Staff something to the effect, "You better protect my investment, or I will have someone else protecting my money...if you know what I mean."Just check out the following link.2014 MLB Top Total Salaries - Starting Pitcher - Spotrac.com
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Post by ajantaka on Apr 30, 2014 0:01:34 GMT -5
Wait a minute. Were there really a lot more injuries of pitchers in the 4-man rotation ear? I don't think so. Pitchers like Warren Spahn pitched every 4 days for 20 years without their arms falling off or their heads exploding. And if keeping the pitchers from getting hurt because of money is the reason are we to believe that owners in the 1930's to 1960's cared less about profit? No, I maintain that there is no logical reason for the 5-man rotation.
P.S. This reply may have gotten posted twice. If so, sorry.
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Post by prisonerno6 on Apr 30, 2014 7:41:08 GMT -5
I still say it is all about money.
Warren Spahn salary in 2014 dollars - $530,421
Bob Gibson salary in 2014 dollars - $848,576
Sandy Koufax salary in 2014 dollars - $907,051
Cy Young salary in 2014 dollars - $104,815
Pete Alexander salary in 2014 dollars - $239,947
Steve Carlton salary in 2014 dollars - $2,659,330
Christy Mathewson salary in 2014 dollars - $262,037
Tom Seaver salary in 2014 dollars - $2,487,331
Lefty Gomez salary in 2014 dollars - $343,447
Robin Roberts salary in 2014 dollars - $351,553
Whitey Ford salary in 2014 dollars - $435,385
Bob Feller salary in 2014 dollars - $452,752
Randy Johnson in 2014 dollars - $19,943,622
Roger Clemens in 2014 dollars - $21,698,756
Tom Glavine in 2014 dollars - $14,078,329
Greg Maddux in 2014 dollars - $18,877,759
What does the above list represent? Free Agency. I just wanted to point out that once Free Agency was implemented owners no longer had complete control over players which kept salaries low.
Remember baseball's reserve clause? Any player who refused to accept a contract was prohibited from playing baseball on any other professional team.
What was the reason the 1919 Chicago White Sox threw the World Series? Charles Comiskey's cheapness.
What broke up 1970's Oakland Athletics Dynasty? Jim “Catfish” Hunter's contract dispute with Charles O. Finley. Hunter’s salary went from $100,000 a year with Oakland to $1.25 million a year for three years with the Yankees. The average player’s salary at the time was $47,000. It changed every player’s idea of his own worth and earning potential in the game. For the first time, a player met an owner as an equal, represented by counsel, with witnesses and evidence, to have a salary dispute decided by a neutral third party
Is my argument solid? No! I just believe that once Free Agency was implemented, owners no longer had complete control over players and baseball became a true business and not some hobby for some rich person. As we know, what does a business need to do to be successful...make a profit.
Does this translate to a 5-Man Rotation? No. But it does kind of explain why some players are treated like a Fabergé Egg.
Here are two questions for you to think about. Why are there so many young pitchers getting Tommy John surgery this year?
Also, why are there some pitchers getting a Second Tommy John surgery?
Links
More than a dozen big league pitchers have already had the surgery this year.
What's with all the Tommy John surgeries?
Failing elbows: Pitchers undergoing Tommy John surgery at unprecedented rate
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Post by ajantaka on Apr 30, 2014 16:00:36 GMT -5
Ok, prisonerno6, I get your point and it may explain some of the 5-man rotation but not all. For one thing you are not allowing for inflation over the decades. You mention the surguries. A dozen out of several hundred pitchers doesn't seem like much to me. But the only way to resolve this, I think, would be to get the actual numbers of serious injuries of pitchers during the 4-man rotation era and the average length of careers and compare it to those during the 5-man era. I have no idea where or how one would get this info but I would think it would be conclusive. If there were no more injuries, proportionally, during the 4-man era and if pitchers careers were as long then, when sports medicine was much more primitive, then that would seem to me to prove conclusively that pitchers could pitch every 4 days now.
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Post by ajantaka on Apr 30, 2014 16:02:10 GMT -5
Whoops, sorry! I see you have adjusted for inflation. But have you allowed for the fact that owners make a whole lot more money now, proportionally, than they did way back when?
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Post by prisonerno6 on May 1, 2014 6:12:32 GMT -5
Just for the record ajantaka, I also do not understand why teams need a 5 or 6 Man rotation.
Seems to me it would be easier to find 4 excellent to outstanding starters and middle relievers and 1 dominating closer. Oh, and of course 1 mop up man. That is how I setup my team.
Of course, if you a true follower of Sabermetrics, you would only need 10 pitchers to pitch only during certain circumstances.
I am still perplexed at the explosion of Tommy John surgeries in 2014!
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Post by ich2232 on May 5, 2014 2:12:41 GMT -5
I'm new here and this caught my eye while scrolling the Forum. I played Baseball in College and I majored in Exercise Science, though I must admit I was more of an Athlete-Student then a Student-Athlete . From what I have learned over the years through playing and schooling, the reason for Pitch Counts and 5 Man Rotations are more an issue of Injury Prevention than anything else. I wouldn't call it coddling necessarily because in reality the mechanics of Over-Hand Throwing are incredibly violent and are not considered "Natural". It's the reason why Softball Pitchers are able to pitch everyday, the Under-Hand motion is considered to be significantly more "Natural" than Over-Hand throwing. It has to do with the anatomy of the shoulder and elbow. Ajantaka, you mentioned that Warren Spahn was able to throw in 4-Man Rotations for 40 years. While I can see our point, I think you should consider the fact that he was a Hall Of Famer. I'd have to chalk it up to the fact that he was simply touched by the Baseball Gods and gifted with tendons and muscles that were able to burden the incredible amount of stress that he had to endure. Of course everybody back then was doing it but the fact that Warren Spahn was able to do it, and be as successful as he was, has to be a testament to great genetics. This was also before the Era of the 24/7 Athlete. Which brings me to prisonerno6's comment about the increase in Tommy John Surgeries. Back then athletes didn't have workout regiments like players of today do. Their workout was going out and throwing everyday. When athletes started to buy into weight lifting and all that stuff around the 40's/50's (It was actually the Russian Olympic teams that started this, and also discovered the "benefits" of Steroids) their bodies, tendons, and muscles began to tighten. Which absolutely would lead to increase in Injury. Think NFL and the massive amount of Hamstring strains. Within the past few years, scientists and personal training specialists have realized that even though weight lifting has massive benefits on performance, it increases the potential for serious injury. They've begun to develop new workout regimes that have almost completely dumped the weight lifting aspects. Getting back to the Tommy John Surgeries, Dr. James Andrews (literally Famous for his incredible knowledge/surgeries on athlete's arms) said in an interview about Matt Harvey that "A UCL tear is a genetic issue. A UCL will either tear or it won't. If a UCL is not genetically developed at birth to withstand the trauma of Over-Hand throwing then it isn't a matter of If it will tear, it's a matter of When it will tear". In past years the Pitch Count was established to try and prevent the Injury, but now I think people have decided that if it's going to happen eventually, you might as well get it over with early. I'm all for having Pitch Counts, especially in younger players. It's almost as if there is a set number of throws given to a person when they are born. I've known many players and even had a few close friends who were promising professional prospects blow out their arms because of over use. Probably 90% of them were never the same after it. So in my opinion, Organizations are armed with this knowledge and have tried to prevent these potential career ending injuries from occurring. Only now are we realizing that it could be because of improper training. Maybe someday in the future we will see 4-Man Rotations and Complete Games again. But being involved in the Exercise Science Community I will tell you one thing is for certain. It's still a very, very young Science. Theories come and go year after year. It's almost like they just experiment, jumping from trend to trend seeing what works and what doesn't. If you're really into this stuff I recommend Googling Eric Cressey. He's like the "Next Mike Trout" of Athletic Training for Baseball players. But who knows, like I said it's all about the newest craze in the world of Athletic Training.
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Post by ajantaka on May 7, 2014 19:22:05 GMT -5
Thanks for the interesting reply ich2232. But I still maintain that the 5-man rotation is arbitrary and a fashion, rather than being based on any kind of reason. Spahn may have been the greatest left handed pitcher in baseball history but we should remember that ALL the starting pitchers pitched every 4 days then. Most did not last for 20 years but there were lost who pitched for 10-15 years. It seems to me that a start towards solving this question could be made by finding out the average number of career years for pitchers during the 4-man era compared to those during the 5-man and, again and most important, trying to establish if there were more injuries per capita back then than now, always remembering that of course you should have less injuries if you pitch less often (shouldn't you?) so there should be a fairly larger number of injuries of pitchers in the 4-man. If there was not then there is no logical reason why pitchers can't pitch every 4 days now. Preventing injury. Our society now operates that if we just do things right, pass enough laws, apppoint enough inspectors, exercise constant caution over everything, why we can prevent anything bad ever happening to anyone. I am afraid that we have made an America of timid, fearful, sitting around checking their pulses constantly and hoping to live forever. In Spahn's day people accepted that risk and injury were part of life. I find the 5-mind rotation to be an indication of something more important, and dangerous than saving overpaid baseball pitchers from any possible injury; it is one more indication of the softness of Americans, of their coddled, protected from birth lives, which would be ok,if we could assume that now serious national crises ever happen in the US again, crises that would call for people with toughness and courage. Have you noticed that when you have a shot at the doctor's now they tape on the bit of cotton over the puncture with tape that has been invented so as not to pull out any little hairs on your arm when it is removed? There is America for you: 5-man rotations and don't want to endure the fearful pain of having any of the little hairs on your arm pulled out. And that is my rant for today.
Thanks
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Post by glenn on May 7, 2014 20:23:11 GMT -5
OK, your comments are coming off more like a political statement rather than a baseball comment. Listen, people are living longer and more productive lives in the modern age simply due to the improvements in health care. I see nothing wrong with this, especially as I'm a Type I insulin-dependent diabetic. If I'd been born 30 years earlier, my life expectancy would be short indeed. No, people are NOT softer now, and athletes are better now than they ever have been. I respectfully disagree with your assertions, and I'll leave it at that.
You refer to Warren Spahn as an example, but he is the exception to the general rule. Look at Sandy Koufax, who was finished early on due to his overuse.
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Post by pointguard on May 7, 2014 23:42:32 GMT -5
Yes, I believe you're making a heck of an overstatement with regard to what's happening in America. These days people step up all the time during crises and perform actions far beyond what we expect (as has occurred throughout our history).
Comments on this site directly relatable to baseball seem more apropos than making baseball's development of a 5-man rotation try to fit into personal feelings about our society. Your suggestions regarding comparisons of careers of pitchers during the 4-man rotation period and the more recent 5-man rotation period are good and would be interesting to see.
Like you, I very much appreciated ich2232's comments and found they added a different insight/perspective into the debate.
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Post by prisonerno6 on May 8, 2014 19:40:06 GMT -5
Mets medical director to be on MLB Network talking TJ surgery May 8th, 2014 3:11 pm Mets medical director Dr. David Altchek will take part in a roundtable discussion about the rise of pitching-related injuries (SI.com, May 6). The one-hour special, titled MLB Network Roundtable: The Pitching Dilemma, will air Saturday, May 10, 2014 at 4 p.m. ET and feature a conversation between Bob Costas, Jim Kaat, John Smoltz, Tom Verducci, Dr. David Altcheck, pitching expert Tom House and Dr. James Andrews. “The basic thing that parents out there and coaches and players alike need to know is if you throw with fatigue at a young age, you have a 36-to-1 chance of injuring your shoulder or elbow,” Dr. Andrews says during the special. “What we really found out is that [high school patients] only had one week off each year from competitive baseball and that one week was – you could guess what – between Christmas and New Year’s. So they’re playing year-round baseball – that’s the number one risk factor in youth baseball.” Matt Harvey, Bobby Parnell and Jeremy Hefner all underwent Tommy John surgery during the last year. In 2014, to date, 15 pitchers, including Parnell, underwent the procedure, which follows 19 in 2013 and 36 in 2012.
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Post by pointguard on May 8, 2014 21:13:30 GMT -5
Good addition, prisoner...makes sense that greater use/fatigue and single-sport emphasis when young could develop stress/injury that might increase the need for surgery after pitchers get to the MLB level.
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